Tavis: I'm so happy you're here to talk to me about Spurgeon and the Poor, your recent book. What is the difference between concern for social issues versus action? And the reason I'm asking you that is because your subtitle is How the Gospel Compels Christian Social Concern. So is there a difference? Tell me why that word versus social action.

Alex: Sure. Well, first of all, thanks for having me on, Tavis. It's a joy to be with you. And that's a good question. I think at some point along the way in working with Reformation Heritage, there was, I can't remember if I suggested it or someone else suggested it, the possibility of a subtitle that included the word social activism or social action or something like that. We settled on social concern. And I don't know if this is the rationale behind it, but I'll tell you why I like that subtitle a little bit better.

Social concern, I think first of all, would represent Spurgeon better and probably represents the Bible better. And what I mean by that is it's speaking about something that should be going on in our hearts, regard for the people around us, our neighbors, the needy, the poor. And it is not prescriptive in terms of what course that concern exactly takes. So in some cases it might look like informal just filling your life with good works of mercy and compassion toward others. In some cases, it might look more formal, like organizing a ministry or a 501(c)(3) or something to help others, or a church organizing some form of benevolent outreach or mercy ministry in their community.

And then in some cases, and it was certainly this way in Spurgeon's life in a few instances, it might look like a kind of social activism in the political arena, speaking on a political issue or something like that, which Spurgeon did on a handful of occasions. When people see the word social action or social activism, I think probably their minds too quickly go immediately to that step, that aspect of sort of engaging in the public sphere, the political sphere, social reform. That's a subset of social concern, and that's one way social concern might manifest itself. But I think social concern talks about a general awareness and posture of the heart that we should have in light of the gospel's power at work within us to want to be engaged in helping and serving the people around us. And I think that's what Spurgeon was after.

Tavis: Okay. So let's talk about Spurgeon, because he is, and you acknowledge this in your book, he's very well known as, of course, the Prince of Preachers. That's his moniker as we know it, especially in reform circles. But you're making a case here that there's another side to Spurgeon that has been overlooked. Would that be a fair statement? Which is-

Alex: Yeah, I think I'd want [inaudible 00:03:24] more to Spurgeon, you know?

Tavis: Yeah, there's more to Spurgeon. Well, let me ask it this way. What was the relationship in Spurgeon between, I guess we could call it the vertical and the horizontal aspects of ministry? He obviously, as we know, there's groups that love to read his sermons. Jeremy Walker has a reading Spurgeon group [inaudible 00:03:50]. But there's this horizontal aspect of the things that he actually did himself personally, not just, oh, his church had a mercy ministry or whatever. But Spurgeon himself spending his own money, for example, initiating some pretty long lasting and impactful social projects we could call them, in London. Can you explain though, what was the relationship between his preaching and his practice, which actually is the outline of your book?

Alex: Yeah, exactly so. Part one is Spurgeon's teaching, and part two is Spurgeon's practice, how he implemented the various principles and doctrines and things he was teaching. I think that Spurgeon is going to resist any effort to compartmentalize or bifurcate word and deed. He's going to see those as intricately related, the one flowing out of the other. Deed flowing out of word. And he's going to see social ministry and mercy ministry is reinforcing and in some ways even vindicating the proclamation of the gospel. Now, that's a big statement to make, but what I mean by that is Spurgeon believed that the power of the new birth and the power of grace at work upon the human heart is such that it transforms the individual into one who is then gracious in his or her orientation toward others.

So we are shown the mercy of God in Christ, we are shown the grace of God in the new birth, and we become ourselves transformed into people who are kind toward others, compassionate toward needy people. Good Samaritans Luke 10, lovers of our neighbors, that kind of thing, so they're intricately connected. Now, I think it's very important to emphasize Spurgeon believed the primary mission of the church was the proclamation of the gospel unto the salvation of souls to the building up of healthy local churches. There's no question, and I try to stress this point in the book, that's the primary mission of the church. But nonetheless, he's going to argue that nonetheless, mercy ministry is an essential aspect of the church's ministry. That flows out of the faithful preaching of the gospel, and then in turn reinforces the preaching of the gospel.

He's going to say a Christian who doesn't show any regard for needy people around them, doesn't show any regard for the afflicted in the oppressed, the genuinely afflicted and the oppressed, is a walking contradiction. He'd just say, "I'd as soon assume you know nothing of the grace of God if you are not moved with compassion and pity toward the needy souls around you." He's going to argue that those who are redeemed by the grace of God are indeed to be a people zealous for good works, as Titus 2:14 says. That's the effect of the gospel upon us. He will say what the Lord says in the Sermon on the Mountain, Matthew 5 that, "The church is a city on a hill, a light to the world." And it's interesting in that passage to have, it's the light that is shining is not the preaching of the gospel there. It's actually our good deeds. Jesus says, "They will see your good deeds and give glory to your father who is in heaven."

That's not to say what some has said in the past, that if you do social work... Who's the guy who said, "To preach the gospel, use words if necessary." Well, Spurgeon would completely reject that. You can't preach the gospel without words. But he's going to say mercy ministry and social concern has this use of reinforcing the gospel message and commending the gospel message, and needs to be a necessary and vital part of church ministry. So very much a harmony, more so than a balance or a compartmentalizing of the two things.

Tavis: Now you're a pastor yourself.

Alex: Yeah.

Tavis: I'm very curious to know what raised the question for you. Where did the idea for this book come? Couldn't you just be satisfied with Spurgeon's preaching?

Alex: It started with a discovery of all this in Spurgeon. So I grew up around Spurgeon, my pastors quoted Spurgeon. They would've seen themselves as in direct theological continuity with sort of the Spurgeonic tradition. They were reformed Baptists in the key of Charles Spurgeon. And by that I mean large-hearted, evangelical, not tribal and crabby, but warm and bright, but also possessed with strong convictions concerning the doctrines of grace, and they narrate to the Bible and things like that. And we held the 1689 Confession of Faith, which Spurgeon republished, I think 1855 or so. So I heard Spurgeon quoted all the time. His books were sold in our church bookstore along with I think a lot of banner titles and RHB titles and things like that.

Eventually, I started reading those sermons for myself when I was in high school or college. And at some point along the way, I can't remember who it was, mentioned this to me, "Did you know that Spurgeon had this orphanage?" I said, "I never heard that in my life," and I began to study this out further and realized wonderful things; That he had his orphanage that served about 500 children at any given time, any given year, about 500 children in the orphanage; That he spent his Christmases there, that he had housing for poor widows annexed to the Metropolitan Tabernacle building there in the heart of South London, that in 1884 they had 66 benevolent institutions operating out of the Metropolitan Tabernacle.

And then sometime after that, I'd go over to England with my wife, and if you've ever been to England, they have these commemorative blue plaques on everything.

Tavis: Yep.

Alex: Blue plaques everywhere. I know it's the historical society, whoever's in charge of that. Charles Dickens, this was his favorite pub, or some big event happened here, some treaty was made here. And they have actually some of those plaques on some of the sites connected to Spurgeon's Life. You go to Kelvedon, Essex, they have the house where he was born, has the plaque on there. On a number of those plaques, he's identified as the great Baptist preacher and philanthropist. And as I'm talking to people, no one knows this. Okay, so that's a little bit of context on Spurgeon.

And then fast forward to our context, Tavis, there's so much debate going on about things like social justice and how to think about social engagement and stuff like that. That wasn't the original impetus, but it became part of the background of the book. And what I found in Spurgeon, I think this is my personal conviction, is that in Spurgeon we have I think a safe and biblical and attractive model for how to think about the relationship between the preaching of the gospel, the preaching of the word, and this deed ministry, good works, social concern, mercy ministry, benevolence, whatever you want to call it. I think speaking of myself and my own kind of tribe that I was reared in, I don't know Tavis, that we always did a good job, I'll just say as Calvinistic Baptists, or as reform folks. Maybe bring in folks broader than my Baptist camp.

I think in the last a hundred years, we haven't been known for mercy ministry and social concern in the ways that our forebears were known for it, certainly as Spurgeon was known for it. I don't see lots of churches living out that Spurgeonic vision for word and deed ministry. And as I have searched since then, in wider evangelical history, reformed history, this was fairly common to have pastors in churches concerned for how the ministry of the church could be energized and mobilized for serving the most needy members of society. Calvin did this in Geneva, many did this in England or the Evangelical Awakening and in America as well. You have the William Wilberforces of the world. But even the George Whitfields and John Wesleys, where they went, they were eager to help the needy.

I trace in the appendix of the book, even some confessional statements, guys like John Knox and others who talk about making arrangements for helping the poor and the needy. It's only a speculation, but I suggest that perhaps with the rise of liberalism in the last a hundred years or so, 150 years, we have increasingly been conditioned to see an interest in mercy ministry and social involvement as an impulse of theological liberalism because you have the rise of the social gospel and things like that in the early 20th century. And I think folks think, Oh, well, those people who are really excited about helping poor people, that's the liberals, that's the modernists, the people who don't believe in an everlasting hell and an atonement that actually achieves anything, and all that kind of stuff. And of course when you rid the Christian faith of those doctrines, what do you have, but a sentimental kind of love for a neighbor?

And so I think that's led a lot of conservative evangelicals and reformed evangelicals to be maybe a little gun-shy and a little bit, we've been burned in this area. That's part of a slide toward liberalism to have this very robust sort of concern for social activism, engagement, mercy ministry. I just sort of suggest that, but I don't see Spurgeon's model being lived out in the same way that it was in his own generation. I think it's something that we could recover. So this book is definitely about a retrieval of a kind of model that I think is biblical, theologically safe, and I think bright and attractive. I wonder Tavis, if you in your own church world, your own experiences as a Christian, do you see any? Does that resonate with you, that speculation, that burden, or would you look at it from a different angle?

Tavis: I think I'm on the same page as you. I mean, there's a number of questions that come up for me about how we put it into practice. I mean, we're in such a different environment in some ways, and yet so similar in other ways to what Spurgeon was dealing with. So let me raise a few issues here. Number one is Spurgeon, besides being Spurgeon, just where he was located in London, and you detail quite a bit of this, just the conditions in London at the time, and those are quite specific to a large metropolitan and especially urban context.

Alex: Yeah, and it was during his lifetime, his entire lifetime, the largest city in the world.

Tavis: Exactly.

Alex: With very complex problems related to the rise of industrialism and all of that.

Tavis: Yeah, and of course in his time, they didn't have certain technical logical advances that we have. I'm not even talking about the internet. I just mean basic infrastructure, that it was different. We don't have to deal with horses, for example.

Alex: [inaudible 00:14:45].

Tavis: And all that comes along with maintaining and having horses and whatnot.

Alex: Or cholera or something like that.

Tavis: Yeah, or something like cholera.

Alex: Yeah, thank God we don't have to deal with that. I'll add a big one too that I think makes this a little more difficult for us today to think through application. There wasn't, for most of Spurgeon's life, a widespread mechanism for social welfare. So the church-

Tavis: Yeah, exactly.

Alex: ... and philanthropists and others, social reformers, they were seen as kind of the safety net. And so if anyone was going to care for needy children or provide for the education of children, it was going to be Sunday schools and ragged schools that the church primarily was responsible to sponsor. And so that creates very different context of how do you apply these same principles in a context where we have all these social programs. The churches has in many ways been eclipsed by these programs that in theory, we all buy into, so that complicates it a little bit more. But one thing I'll just say on that, Tavis, I know you have a question there, one of the things I try to argue in the book is there's difficult principles undergirding this that I think can be applied in any context regardless of the social situation. So Spurgeon most of all is after you and me, Tavis, being kind, gracious, and merciful men to the people in our lives.

So he wants us, when we see a stranded person on the side of the road, to stop off and help them because we're Christians. So he has this great quote, "Time was whenever a man found a Christian, he knew he found a helper." He says, "A Christian is a philanthropist by profession and generous by force of grace." He just wants us to be universally known as the people who help and the people who care. Whether that looks like societal renewal and transformation, all that, he's not on that. He's not saying, "Hey, we need to transform the culture and bring heaven on earth, solve all of society's ills." He just wants Christians to have the rep that we love people and care for people and we're looking out for them. And if there are opportunities we have to positively do good toward needy people, that's in every way becoming of a Christian.

So it's going to look different in different contexts, different cities, different governmental and social environments, but he wants that heartbeat to be there. And whether it manifests itself again in just your church... We have members of my own church, there's a sister here right now that's a food pantry that meets in my church a couple times a month. She's down there right now. She organizes it and runs it. This sister has just filled her life with thousands that countless good works every day, she's about helping needy people way she can. She volunteers at nonprofit, she serves people in the life of our church, she's supporting ministries. You don't have to, whether you're living in London in the century or Winston-Salem in the 21st, you can do that kind of work and be known for that kind of work. And he wants us as Christians to be known for that kind of thing. But I think I cut you off there. You might've had a question-

Tavis: No, no, no, not at all. We're having a conversation. This is good.

Alex: [inaudible 00:17:47] good.

Tavis: Okay, so you've used a phrase twice now that sends off huge alarm bells for a lot of people in the reformed world, and that's good works. And so we have this anxiety, this is a stereotype in a way, but we do have somewhat of an anxiety about that phrase. What do you mean by good works? After the ellipses is, how is that related to our sanctification, to our salvation, to on and on?

Alex: Yeah, sure.

Tavis: You have articulated this a bit earlier, but how would Spurgeon respond to that, when someone's saying, "Well, look, yeah, the good works are important. Of course, we know that from all over the New Testament and elsewhere"? But I think the point I want to make is this, is that this anxiety that we have as conservative evangelicals, I think actually it stems from more, and I think you'd agree, more than just a slide into liberalism.

Alex: Sure.

Tavis: But going the other direction, a slide towards RCC, the dreaded Roman Catholic theology of, you earn your way to heaven, as we've understood it.

Alex: Sure. Well, one of the reasons I think it's legitimate to speculate that Roman Catholics are so energized toward benevolent type ministry might have to do with their theology of works. That's a highly simplistic and overly reductionist statement.

Tavis: Of course.

Alex: But I would expect you'd find something there that that contributes to their social ethic to some degree.

Tavis: But it seems like Spurgeon was able to maintain a better balance than we have today?

Alex: Mm-hm.

Tavis: I'm casting a wide net here is, I think the advent of things like social media and specifically Twitter, I mean maybe that's given many of us an outlet by which we feel like we are, I call it doing damage to the enemy by engaging in these conversations. But would Spurgeon be much of a Twitterite or would he be out on the street? I mean, would he be out on the street getting his hands dirty?

Alex: Yeah. Well, just to be clear, I mean Spurgeon would be a riot on Twitter. I think he would... In a way, he's got all these one liners and punchy quotes, and he would kind of own the medium, I'm sure. Would he use it? Oh, I don't know. That's hard to say. Spurgeon, there's sort of two questions here, Tavis, I want to answer. The one on good works I think is really important. But first on this, I think Spurgeon is about doing the work. He used to speak of the Metropolitan Tabernacle as a working church, and he would boast that, "All my members are workers for Christ." And you're right, I mean, you need to be careful with that. That could slide into, we're the doers, and we do, and look what we've done, and we have these works to show, if you're not careful about that.

Now the sweet thing about Spurgeon, and I think you and I both know this about him, is he's such a robust and warm-hearted advocate of the doctrine of justification by faith, of the glories of grace and the mercies of Christ. And he stands tall and broad against Roman Catholic understandings of works righteousness or even some Anglo Catholic incursions that are making their way into English life in those days. So he's great on grace and he's great on justification. But here's the thing on good works, and I think Spurgeon understands, I think you'll see this in the way he uses the language. I think somewhere in the book, I actually give a definition of how he's using the term good works. I may or may not, I can't remember now. I know I have a quote somewhere where he does that.

But the word works, of course, is used in all kinds of ways in the Bible. So Paul, the Apostle Paul, can speak so negatively in Romans, Galatians, places like that when he's talking about works of the law. And I know there's dissertations and whole commentaries written that debate this issue of what are works of the law. Probably talking about obedience to mosaic prescriptions, I think. But the idea that by works of the law, no one will be justified, that's one way in which the term works can be used. And of course, if we're talking about works in that sense, the issue of merit is what's in the foreground. Well, that's not the way Spurgeon is commending good works.

Moreover, the Bible can speak of good works in the sense we think of works of piety. Prayer can be a good work, worship can be a kind of work. The Bible does use that language at times. Again, that's not the main way Spurgeon is using the language. When he's talking about good works, he would use it more in the way that I think Paul is using it in Titus 2:14, that we would be a people zealous for good works. I think in chapter 3, he defines a good works as being, meeting the needs of people, the urgent needs of people. And the way Jesus, I think is using the term in Matthew 5 that I mentioned before, that they would see our good deeds and glory to our father who is in heaven. It was interesting in chapter 6 verse 1 of Matthew, he'll say, "Don't practice your righteousness to be seen by others," but there, he's talking more about piety. Pharisees were standing on the street corner and praying, or they're disfiguring their faces to show that they're fasting.

But the good works and vision, I think in the Sermon on the Mount in Matthew 5 are these public deeds of kindness and charity and good that are done toward others. Peter will speak in 1 Peter 2, I believe it is, about the surrounding community for Peter 2:12 I think, the surrounding community observing your good deeds so that when you're reviled, they'll sort of be refuted and shamed by the public good that you do and that you're known for. So yeah, I think when he's going to come in good works, I've used that term a couple of times like you said, I think he's talking about benevolence and kindness toward others, mercy toward others. Not primarily, we think immediately in a Roman Catholic reformation kind of setting, a Pauline setting, Roman's Galatians, works righteousness. That's not what he's really talking about. He's going to be talking about good deeds of kindness, benevolence and mercy. That's what he's after. And he says, "Those, we want our lives filled to the brim and overflowing with those kinds of things. Christian people should be known for that."

Tavis: Yeah, the good works he prepared in advance for us to do the-

Alex: Ephesians 2, yeah.

Tavis: Absolutely. Absolutely. Okay, so why orphanages? He seemed to really place an emphasis on those.

Alex: Yeah, not just orphanages. I'd say children's ministry in general was a big emphasis. And I think part of the reason for that, here's a principle that I think we can apply, though it might not have the same... Well, I think that our context have within it have a very similar application. We are probably not going to go out and start an orphanage. That doesn't really happen anymore, not in America. There's social programs that have replaced in large measure the need for "orphanages," but in... Spurgeon assessed in his own community, in his own context, vulnerable children were among the most needy members of society; They were most to be commended for Christian care. And it's been that way throughout the history of the church. It was that way even under the old covenant, children were seen as unusually vulnerable. Jesus saw children as unusually vulnerable. Most often when he refers to "the least of these," he's referring to kids, and that they can be taken advantage of.

So Spurgeon identified, well, even after the New Testament was written, you have the stories of Athanasius and others rescuing children from these infanticide walls. Just amazing to think you'd have a child born, oh, it's a girl and not a boy, let's put her out to die in the elements. That was legal. And who was it? It was the Christians who were going to gather those children, tearing down those walls. It was Christians who devised the first hospitals where people could go and have medical attention for their sick children. So in Spurgeon's context, that's what he assesses as one of the biggest needs. And it's a couple things there. A, there are kids who are fatherless or there are kids who are motherless, or there are kids who have been abandoned, or kids who are just destitute, their families are incredibly poor. Poverty was a big issue in London. And for them, he wants to provide aid and care.

But then also he was very concerned about the education of children. There weren't public schools until, I want to say, the 1870s, so the education of children was a big deal. And then also it's during Spurgeon's lifetime in Victoria and London. Think like Charles Dickens, "Please sir, may I have some more?"

Tavis: Yes.

Alex: How much Dickens wrote about children and the psychology of children, he was very in tune with that. You had children who were working in factories and slums. They go through picking up garbage and selling stuff to people. So he'd find these kids out on the street who dropped out of school at eight years old or something like that, and he wants to do better for them. So an orphanage is one of the big responses to that need where the kids are having everything looked after, their material needs looked after, their education. And then also they're bringing them in for services at the Tabernacle. So many of these boys, and then later girls. There was a boys' orphanage from 1869 to '79. Well, actually, the orphanage became Spurgeon's Children's Charity, which is still in effect today; Serves tens of thousands of kids across the country. You had a boys' orphanage in 1869, a girls' orphanage erected in 1879.

Many of those kids, especially the boys, they became pastors. They joined the pastor's college, numbers of them. Some of them were sent out to be missionaries. It's really remarkable to penetrate some of their stories, but that would be one of the reasons why he's most engaged with children at the orphanage. And then later Sunday school classes, which I don't think like... I don't know about your church, Tavis, in my church, families come here, kids are in Sunday school at 9:15. At 10:30, we have the worship service. There in England, it was this way in Spurgeon's lifetime, I think it's this way now, even at the Metropolitan Tabernacle, which is still a healthy thriving church-

Tavis: Yes, it is.

Alex: ... they would have Sunday schools in the afternoon. In fact, I was just reading an account from one of the deacons at the church during Spurgeon's lifetime, during his ministry he said, "No less than a thousand members of the tabernacle would go out into the city of London on a Sunday afternoon, and they'd gather children up for these sidewalk Sunday schools and backyard Bible clubs and all of that. There were [inaudible 00:28:49] to a Sunday schools. There were other groups called ragged schools, which did more in terms of education like math and reading and arithmetic and stuff like that.

But there's a principle, we apply this in our own day. Our church, for example, is very engaged with things like adoption, foster care. We have certain counselors in our church who are specialized in helping children who have suffered from abuse and things like that. So I think today I would still regard children, needy children, as one of the areas where the church can get most engaged to serve kids in the community.

Tavis: Interesting. Okay. My next question was going to be if Spurgeon were here today, and one reason that question comes to mind is because... Well, two reasons. Number one [inaudible 00:29:42] that we have started attending since moving back actually from England, Grand Rapids. One of the things that we're praying about is to put a greater emphasis on local missions. Missions, often I think we think the jerk is, oh, India, Haiti, out there versus [inaudible 00:30:15] for me. What, well, this is a segue to the next question, goal needs are there that the government or the social welfare program? But that's kind of my second question then is [inaudible 00:30:35] research or thought into it. The default, at least in the west is, I mean, that's why I pay taxes, so I don't have to think about it. I can just pay and those guys are taking care of it for me. We don't have [inaudible 00:30:55] that Spurgeon had.

For example, you talk about children, and of course one issue that leaps to mind just because it's so in the news right now, is the abortion issue. And now we're talking about the unborn, the pre-born versus children that are eating rubbish or I think of the book [inaudible 00:31:26], right? I mean, you have children in absolutely desperate situations and they [inaudible 00:31:34] but what about now? What is it that, say if you [inaudible 00:31:41] and say, "Hey Alex, our church needs help in identifying [inaudible 00:31:47] begin. How do we be like Spurgeon?"

Alex: Well, yeah, that's a great question. And I think a lot of readers of this book will either come to the book with that question, hopefully they won't leave scratch in their heads. Because I do try to make some practical pastoral suggestions for where churches might start. But in my mind, I think the first and obvious thing to say is that we should start with the needs in our own local church, Galatians 6:10, "Let us do good to all, especially those who of the household of faith." And you see the kind of internal care churches had for one another in the New Testament.

Well, I tell our congregation that people will say, "How can I serve the church? I want to serve the church. Oh, we're so glad to be at this church. How can I serve?" I'll say, "Start by coming to the prayer meeting, because it's there we're relating lots of needs and things like that. And people become aware, oh yeah, this person's struggling with this or that, this brother's unemployed, this family has a child with a disability, and caring for him on a regular basis is often debilitating. And if he just had someone that occasionally would come and sit with him and read to him, that would be help. There's things like that. There's a couple that is trying to adopt a child and there's a big funding gap there, and maybe the church can come and step up and individuals can contribute. So you become aware of needs internally. The church, again, like a city on a hill, the kind of mutual care we have for each other shines forth the world."

But then I see no reason why that kind of care in regard can't extend to others. Again, if you're thinking about large-scale, systemic and structural change, it gets a little harder and more complicated. But if you think about just being a good neighbor, and I know that idea of loving neighbors, I hesitate every time I use that term now. People get triggered by that term because they think that means I think they need to get vaccinated or wear a mask or something. That's not how I'm using the term. No commentary there on masks or vaccinations, but everything is love for a neighbor now, right? But it is this blessed commandment we've been given by the Lord. It's the second great commandment, that we're to love our neighbors as ourselves.

So you have relationships with lost people and you become aware of needs and burdens that they have. And here's our next-door neighbor and the wife, she's got preeclampsia and she's bedridden. Well, can we step in and provide meals once a week for her? Yeah, we could do that. Can we organize some other folks in our church to do that? Well, I would say, Tavis, on that level, there's limitless thing. I mean, we don't have to look very far to come up with those types of things. It gets more complicated when politics is involved and you're talking about systemic structural change.

So what is to be the church's role in trying to address problems related to immigration or Ukraine or refugee crisis or whatever? Then you're going to have to apply a lot of wisdom. There's going to be many more factors. The solutions become much more complex. It's a lot easier for my wife and I to make a meal for a neighbor in need and in distress or to mentor students after school than it is to know how to address this or that major social problem. But I will say, Spurgeon, so I include some examples in the book. I don't want to throw everything out there, but the one that's really well known is his stand against slavery in the American South, and he seeks to defend American slaves and to advocate for them much to his own personal hurt. He loses hundreds and hundreds of pounds. And in losing that funding, it jeopardizes actually his own pastor's college, which he had been funding through revenue from America.

But he felt the issue was just staring him in the face. This is an obvious in-your-face moral evil and Christians everywhere should be speaking out against it. I think I would put abortion in that category. That's just not unclear to me personally, that we should be speaking out for the unborn. And if there are ways, so like our church and our own community, we do, we support pregnancy centers in our area. Some of our members who've got counseling in those places and then we sponsor a Walk for Life every year. Those things like that, that could be helpful. Again, I'm not eager, Tavis, to prescribe in detail exactly how each church is going to get after this, but I want to put up the broad categories and principles, see it illustrated in Spurgeon's life. And then I do throw out some suggestions for how this might be done, or at least where churches can start. But you can see kind of where my mind goes.

Tavis: Yeah.

Alex: We don't need to wait for anyone's permission or the government's permission to be merciful and kind and generous toward everyone we meet. How we solve the larger structural problems, that's going to be a little more complex to figure out, but I think it's worth our effort in trying to figure it out. So I will mention last thing Tavis, on this point, I do provide a whole chapter on Spurgeon's politics.

Tavis: Yes.

Alex: Well, no. First a chapter on how he saw politics relating to preaching, should preachers bring politics into the pulpit with them? And then I have a chapter that kind of goes into how Spurgeon thought about the political issues of his day. And I think that might help readers a little bit thinking through, okay, this is how he tried to apply the principles of the Bible in terms of the political landscape of his life. How might we think of it in our own context today?

Tavis: Yeah. Okay, let me ask you a question that I think some of the pastors who are going to [inaudible 00:37:42] pop up in their head. As we know, the life of a pastor is busy, especially if you have a family and... There are people in your church that's very important. And you've talked about that [inaudible 00:38:07]. We know that Spurgeon didn't act alone in creating these orphanages. He didn't construct the [inaudible 00:38:14] he obviously he had help. He was just one man. What advice would you give for a pastor who feels ire to go and do, but feels as though they don't know how to add another thing to their plate? How would you counsel them? Is it [inaudible 00:38:41] and go and do at least one thing? What's your advice for those who run to this message, they see the example of Spurgeon, and they want to imitate him, to imitate Christ, right?

Alex: Right.

Tavis: [inaudible 00:39:06] have an impact if they feel like they just don't have the time?

Alex: Yeah, there's a few things I would say to that, and I think we see these things illustrated in Spurgeon's example. I think first of all, preach for it, at it, when it's in the text. So if you see in the passage of preaching expositionally, week by week there's an emphasis on doing good to others, serving others, loving others, both within the church and outside the church go hard for it and pray for the spirit of God to bring about that fruit in the congregation. Again, this doesn't have to be formal or organized. The best, I think benevolent type ministry is not formal at all, but it's the spirit of God at work and people just making them kindhearted and generous toward others, merciful in their orientation, gracious in their orientation toward others. So preach for it when it comes up in the text.

And then I would say secondly, consider if it's possible in your own schedule. If you're a solo pastor, maybe try to set aside a week where you have someone else come in and just preach for you. And you're going to give a week to give thought to this issue to see what I'm going to think about our city, I'm going to think about our members, our resources. And this week I'm going to give myself to thinking about how we can do this better going forward and better realize this biblical ideal that is held out a number of passages.

But now this is a big one, third, I would say, and Spurgeon does this quite well, I mentioned 66 benevolent institutions by 1884. Most of those did not originate with Spurgeon. He responded providentially to the things people were bringing to him, and he was an encourager of the godly ambitions of his members. So here, Tavis, a manager, you're a member of my church, and you happen to be really engaged with the pregnancy centers. Maybe you work for the pregnancy center. I'm like, "Tavis, can you take some time, pray about this and come and tell me, what are three or four ways I could encourage our church to be engaged in this?" Release the membership to do the work. So for example, in our own church, one of our best ministries, almost all of our ministries did not start in an elders meeting or with me taking a week off and trying to think through this. Some member had a bright idea or was involved in something already that we were able to get behind.

One of our most significant ministries in our church is a ministry called Solus Christus, which is a center for women who have been caught up in addiction, criminal activity, or in some cases just they're fleeing from abuse or something like that. And every week, a few of our members oversee this ministry, and numbers of our members are employed in this ministry. Every week they show up with a big bus of about 15 to 20 women, and they're in our gatherings Sunday by Sunday. They have different women often. Some stay for months at a time, some are gone within a couple of weeks, they go onto a rehab or something like that.

Tavis: Wow.

Alex: And they're under the preaching of the gospel. Well, there was an opportunity where we thought, okay, so they all have this campus and this farm that they live on, and they have classes there. They have Friday night dinners where testimonies are given and things like that. Well, we're looking at this as elders thinking, A, not only is it an awesome good work, but there's multiple ways in which our church can get behind this and get engaged in it.

So we have youth going out there doing cleaning days, rubbing shoulders with these women, encouraging them, developing relationships with them. We have families that can go out and work on the farm alongside these ladies. We have men and women who can teach small group classes for the ladies. And then they will adopt different ones who are going to stay for longer term, have them in their home, things like that. Well, we didn't come up with that in an elders meeting. That was never on an agenda for us. The Lord brought a couple that was engaged in this work and we saw an opportunity and we said, "Well, we can get behind this."

Well, Spurgeon is doing that often. The orphanage itself, he didn't come up with that. A wealthy widow endowed 20,000 pounds to start an orphanage. She was looking for someone who can get behind this effort, and she said she thought Spurgeon was the guy. She approaches him and says, "Hey, my name's Anne Hilliard," she wasn't a member of his church, "and I've been observing what you've been doing in London, and I think you're the man for the job. I want to give this money, I want to start an orphanage. I want you to be the one to lead it." And there's all sorts of stories like that for many of the other ministries that were started.

The pastor doesn't have to do all the work. Get a focus group together of members who are thinking about this. This is already where their headspace is and say, "Hey, what's some ways we can get involved in our community?" Release the membership to do some of that grunt work, and then you as the pastor, if you see good works like this, man, get your full weight behind it and push as hard as you can. Talk about it in sermons illustrations. Celebrate it at evening service or prayer meeting, whatever your church does, small groups. If there are good testimonies, have folks come and share testimonies how the Lord's working through this or that ministry or what have you. So those would be some things.

If you're done in a bigger church, and the Tabernacle is of course a bigger church, I know it's possible for some churches like that to have certain pastors who might specialize in things, so I think having a pastor... So we have a pastor in our church. We're not a huge church, but big enough to have two staff pastors. And part of my fellow elders, one of my fellow elders jobs is to help us think about local and global missions. And so he's the primary point person for bringing recommendations to us, proposals to us for ways we can be engaged in our community. So there's be a few, I think, words of advice. It sounds like your church, Tavis, is kind of thinking through this right now. Have you guys had any success as you think about your own congregation, your own community? Are there things you guys are coming up with that, "Hey, this is something I think we can get involved with. This is a way we can live out that zeal for good works in our own community"? Any thoughts on that?

Tavis: Again, this was newly brought to our attention and we're fairly new to the church. So for you, yeah, [inaudible 00:45:21]. We don't have, as far as I know, an outreach pastor, which I know [inaudible 00:45:28] have someone of that title or something similar. And that's kind of [inaudible 00:45:34]. Do you think though, which was my next question, do you think that having staff who that's their job, may be somewhat detriment? You're sitting there in the pews thinking, oh...

Alex: Yeah.

Tavis: Whereas it sounds like a lot of people who came to Spurgeon [inaudible 00:46:00] woman weren't even in his church. They just were moved to do something [inaudible 00:46:07] by the fact that, well, in our case today, oh, the government's got it. The outreach passed. Outreach [inaudible 00:46:15] you know-

Alex: No, I didn't-

Tavis: Wait for them to tell [inaudible 00:46:20].

Alex: Yeah, I think that's a perennial danger. I think that it's a perennial danger with having a staff in a church. So this has been our philosophy. We don't have a massive staff. Our church has maybe 250 people, two full-time staff members, a couple of part-time staff members. But we will tell our church the best staff is going to mobilize the church for ministry, not rob the church of its ministry. So Ephesians 4:11, we're told that the pastor teachers, the apostle, prophets, evangelists, pastor teachers are to equip the saints for the work of ministry. I understand that to mean that the work of the ministry belongs to the saints. The pastor teachers equip them for that work. And so we are very jealous to make sure any staff additions we make does not, what's the word I'm looking for, atrophy the engagement of our members in all kinds of ministry.

Now I think there is a place having staff that specialize in certain things where you just have to pay somebody because they have some expertise in some area. Maybe some special financial competence or they're good at tech stuff, website stuff. But for most things, the best staff's going to organize the church for ministry. It's not unlike good healthy deacons. Let's assume Act 6 is talking about deacons. I don't think that the Apostles call those men who are full of the Holy Spirit and wisdom, that those seven men did all the ministry themselves. I'm assuming they were administrators of ministry, organizers of ministry, and they were thinking through how do we need to organize the life of this massive Jerusalem church with systems and structures that will enable care to go to people that they need?

So one of my fellow elders, Brad, who's on the staff with me, he's organizing meal trains, but he's not providing all the meals. He is reaching out to members to, what is going on in the life of the church that we can promote and we can be engaged in? He's trying to stimulate in the congregation an interest in these things, not just take that over and, all right, this is my job. So I think that's not just a problem with mercy ministry. That's a problem with all kinds of things in churches. The professionalization of ministry, which I don't think we want to do. I don't think that's the picture we see in the New Testament. The saints are engaged. There is a utility, and as a matter of prudence value in having a church staff, but it should never rob the church of its birthright of doing the work of ministry.

Tavis: I have two more questions for you. The first one has to do with, how would you advise a [inaudible 00:49:11] take your book? To take your and utilize it, I would say, from the pulpit? I'll just [inaudible 00:49:26] on the table of contents here. So you've organized it into, we could say the theological and the practical, but it's Surgeon's [inaudible 00:49:36] practice. What would be a really tactile piece of [inaudible 00:49:44] they've read and not just get inspired by it, but put it into practice [inaudible 00:49:50] out in the wider community?

Alex: One thing I hope that will happen, Tavis, with this book is that elder teams and deacon teams will read it together. So if a pastor reads this, he's inspired by it or helped by it. I think it'd be a good thing to read it with some other folks in your church, and starting with the officers and leadership, I think that's valuable. But I think, I mean if you guys are a very practical word for pastors who want to implement some things in the book. Part of the things I've already said in terms of mobilizing the members, taking the weak, those kind of things. I think finding some of these keystone texts and preaching them.

So in my church, we're normally going through books of the Bible. I'm in Matthew, but I probably six or seven times a year, will just do a topical sermon that is reflective of a pastoral burden that we have. And so the pastor's reading this thinking, look at what spurge did. Isn't that right? Isn't that good? We need more of this in our church. There's something here that is distinctly Christian, God honoring, becoming of a New Testament church. We want to be engaged in this. I'd say go ahead and preach on Luke 10. Start there. Preach on the good Samaritan. Preach on the passage I mentioned in Titus 2, in Matthew 5. Preach on Galatians 6:10 on doing good to all. Show the ways in which Jesus himself cared for the material needs of people and consider doing a short series or a topical message to start.

And then I'd say put it on the agenda for the elders meeting. I'd tell our congregation, apart from our weekly gathers on Sunday mornings where the word of God is preached and the people of God worship with each other in fellowship together, the most important other two hours in life for our church are the elders meeting, which most members aren't in on obviously, but that's where so much happens in terms of setting the course for the church. And big issues are discussed together.

Well, get it on the agenda and say, "Brothers, here we are, a church in Philadelphia or Coral Springs or wherever we are, and we see this as a biblical ideal, that this is part of what the church was about. And this is part of what the church has been about throughout history. We can multiply numerous historical examples of the church being engaged and helping the needy, helping the poor and those who are afflicted. What would that look like in our own community? Let's have a healthy... Let's set aside an hour, hour and a half to talk this out and let's try to walk out of here with three or four action items for our particular context and community." You'll see in that Tavis, I'm trying to...

I appreciate what you're doing. You're trying to push me toward something concrete and practical, and that's where this has to go. I just want to stop short of prescribing what that needs to look like in every church context because I think a lot of people have done a lot of damage on this issue by over prescribing what you need to do, Tavis, to love your neighbor. You need to get involved in this way. I want to start with, do we see these principles as biblical? Was Spurgeon on to something. Okay, what are the principles? Are they true? Are they biblical? Great, they are. I think they are. Okay, now, how can I begin to implement those things?

I'm suggestive in the book. I start with giving ideas, but I want to see, I hope to see thoughtfulness and creativity among different elderships and deacon boards and members who get this. To think, okay, in our context... Because it's going to look different in Manhattan than it's going to look in rural mountain area, North Carolina. There will be opportunities to do good in both settings, but those leaders need to think very carefully, how are we going to do this here? So I think preaching for it, preaching about the principles and ideals. And then working out with your elders, how are we going to try to lead the church in this? Make it something you guys are talking about.

Tavis: No, that's actually [inaudible 00:53:47]. That's what I was pressing towards, was what you said in the beginning of being the elders read the book together. It's such a great idea and it seems like, just having read your book, it's quite accessible for [inaudible 00:54:07]. It's not going to be over their heads academic. In fact, it reads somewhat like a biography of Spurgeon, but on a very specific aspect of his ministry, and I really enjoyed that.

Alex: Sure, sure.

Tavis: I'm losing my question. I may have to edit this part out. Hold on. I'll edit this. Hold on a minute. Hold on a minute because I can edit this out in post. That question.

Alex: We were talking about making it practical for pastors if they want to implement the book.

Tavis: Oh yes, thank you. The thing that in your [inaudible 00:55:06] is creativity and the fact that this [inaudible 00:55:13] for us was ultimately driven by the Holy Spirit. In him, through the members of that church, through the preached word, [inaudible 00:55:26] through, not under their own impetus, and yet not holy without that as well. So there's this aspect of, and I think you bring up, it's really important, Manhattan versus Mount Airy versus Skid Row [inaudible 00:55:45] London itself today. There's striking about your book is that it isn't restricted in time. You'd be like, "Well, [inaudible 00:55:58] good luck." It's like, no, take this and go and do differently. And yeah, I hope that creative aspect... I think that really shines through, but I hope that that is what happens with your book, that it does impact the church in that way.

I mean, this is a message we need to hear. You're right. We've fallen behind in the [inaudible 00:56:31] because we've kind of given up our responsibility. And it's important that Luke saw fit to record an Acts. It's not the inner dialogue he records, but he does say that it's Paul and Barnabas, right? They were reminded to take care of the poor, which they [inaudible 00:56:57]. How did Luke know that? How did he know they were-

Alex: Right.

Tavis: Were they're like, "Yeah," they were cheering? But Luke was probably privy to some very intense discussions and thinking on the part of these men about, what are we going to do about... Driven by something to do. It was right. They knew it was the right thing to do. Meaning they were driven by a motivation that didn't just stem, well, of course, it's the right thing to do. No, it was rooted in, well, the scriptures that they knew. And I would assume the example of [inaudible 00:57:44] early on in this conversation.

Alex: And I would say that, like I said, Spurgeon, I think he's showing us something that was not unique historically. I mean, he's going to do it on a scale. Everything with Spurgeon's bigger and brighter. But as I try to argue, I hope folks won't miss the appendix. In hindsight, I wish I titled the appendix something more interesting. I think it's called Spurgeon's Ministry and Historical Perspective or something. I wish I did like, Was Spurgeon Woke? Or I don't know, whatever would peak someone's attention. But what I try to do there, just situate him historically theologically that he's not an aberration. He's not an unusual bright light that popped up for a minute and was gone. In reformed and evangelical circles, this was pretty normal for churches to care about this kind of thing and to get after it vigorously.

I want to say to my conservative and reformed world that I swim in, there's something here for us to retrieve, and I think we have. We have withdrawn a little bit from something that is scriptural and biblical, not to mark the church. But I want to make sure I'm clear, Tavis, because I know, Tavis, the critique is coming. Oh, are we just trying to create the social justice Spurgeon now? Is this the woke Spurgeon or whatever? And it's not that at all. He's not [inaudible 00:59:09] so there's a huge corrective to those on the far left in these debates and discussions about social justice as well. He's not going to go there with that. And I just think there's something really positive and special here. It's showing guys like us that I can have my conservative theology and my commitment to inerrancy and to the Orthodox and fundamental doctrines of the Bible; And I can be committed to gospel proclamation in the building up of healthy churches as the primary mission and ministry of the church; And I can be engaged in heartfelt, sincere Christ-honoring mercy ministry that helps needy people in my world. There's a way to do that without selling the farm and buying into a social gospel or becoming woke or joining a social justice movement and all that.

There was someone who posted something on Twitter that, "Oh, this is CRT meets Spurgeon," or something like that. I think the guy deleted the post. I think if they just look at the publisher on the spine, I think they know that's pretty well impossible [inaudible 01:00:11] put that out. And that's not me either, but it is going to press us as conservative and reform guys to think, okay, there's something here we've maybe missed. But it's going to give us something, I think, that yeah, we can do this in a way that is biblically and theologically safe and right and good, and that doesn't have to go down the road of something wonky and weird and what have you.

Tavis: Yeah. Alex, I've been convicted by your book. I honestly hope it has a very wide reach [inaudible 01:00:48] not just in the West, but in those churches that in my core perception, are probably doing this better in countries with less of a social structure. That's a whole nother discussion. Where can people find you if they want to find you? Apart from on the Heritage where we can find your book, where else else can people find you and your musings and your sermons?

Alex: My primary work is as a preacher and a pastor of Emmanuel Church of Winston-Salem. So you could find me in the pulpit on Sunday mornings at 10:30. If you're ever in town, please come visit us. We'd love to have you with us. That's my life's work, and preaching is something I do on the side. Excuse me. Not preaching, I'm sorry. Writing is something I do on the side. That's an extracurricular. Preaching is not. Preaching is my life's work. I'm on social media, Twitter, you could find me on there and on Facebook. Would love to connect with you in that space.

And then I do have, God willing, more coming out on Spurgeon over the next two or three years. So there's a few projects in the works. I'm working on an edited volume of some of his pastoral lectures and addresses, just like lectures and addresses on pastoral ministry. So drawing from lectures to my students, and then a lesser-known book of his called An All-Round Ministry, which I think Banner has published, reprinted. I just took the 10 greatest hits from those two volumes, put introductory essays, trying to reintroduce those works to a new generation. That's with H&D, should come out later this year. I'm working on a popular biography of Spurgeon. I mean, there were many when he first died, but since Arnold Dallimore, there really hasn't been a good popular biography. That's over 40 years ago. And there's been so much we've learned about Spurgeon since then and so much we have access to now that we didn't before.

So this isn't like a big, heavy, critical biography. I think there's others doing that. This is for folks in your church, if you're quoting Charles Spurgeon a bunch and Ms. Mabel in the front row wants to know, "Who's this guy my pastor keeps quoting?" Here's the biography for that, my hope. So that's actually with Reformation Heritage also. We're talking about a timeline for that project now.

And then the big book I'm working on is with Dr. Jeff Chang over at Midwestern Seminary in Kansas City, the Spurgeon Center out there. We're working on an edited volume. The first ever a volume on Spurgeon's theology. So if you wanted to know, what does Spurgeon believe on various heads of theology, there's no book out there right now that can give you that. So we brought together a all-star crew of contributors and other historians, experts in Spurgeon, guys who did their PhD on Spurgeon. Then lots of other historians like Michael Haken, Ray Rhodes, Nathan Finn, other guys like that, and really looking forward to that. So that'll be out, that's BNH 2025, I think, although the manuscript's due pretty soon. But it's a massive project, several hundred pages, all that kind of stuff. Yeah, look out for those things in the months and years ahead.

Tavis: Awesome. Hey man, thanks for this. Appreciate it. Everyone this heritagebooks.org, pick up the book. Give it to your pastor, read it yourself, Sid, Alex, that people do reading groups of this. I think this is the kind of book that's healthy conversations amongst Christians. And that would be the desire that we don't [inaudible 01:04:18] and then onto the next book and forget the principles therein. So it's at our church, if possible, and I hope others do the same. But thanks everyone for listen.

Alex: Travis, thanks for having me on. I thoroughly enjoyed the time, brother.